The mortgage companies going down is the MORTGAGE Co.'s fault for giving out high risk loans. The turmoil in the real estate market is because of those high risk loans, ie. people who shouldn't buy bought and then were foreclosed on.

Personal debt is at an all time high, sure, because people like to buy things they can't afford, not because Bush exists.

As for the GDP and the stock market, if the rich were less taxed, they would invest more money and GDP/Stock market would go up. Middle and low income people would do better because of that investment.

What you want to do is raise taxes on the wealthy, which would discourage investment, grind the GDP to a halt, drop the stock market, etc.

Could be, could be. But I'm enthused by your complete lack of response to the actual statements I made.

“Personal debt is at an all time high, sure, because people like to buy things they can't afford, not because Bush exists.”


Real Income is not increasing and in fact after inflation income is down for many families. That drives then to use their credit cards more. The so called GOOD times in NOT flowing to the middle and lower income families just the wealthy.

“As for the GDP and the stock market, if the rich were less taxed, they would invest more money and GDP/Stock market would go up. Middle and low income people would do better because of that investment.”

No more money to the wealthy does not result in higher demand. Increased income to the middle and low income families is far more effective to stimulate demand. Increased investment of the wealthy in the stock market does NOTHING for the vast majority of people. 90% of the securities are held by the wealthiest 10%.

“What you want to do is raise taxes on the wealthy, which would discourage investment, grind the GDP to a halt, drop the stock market, etc.”


Increasing taxes on the wealthy would have little impact on demand and would help balance the budget. We are spending $450 Billion dollars every year on interest! That money is needed for things like Social Security and Medicare payments.

because of the jobs created.

this stuff has been increasing in price for a lot more than 7 years.

health care is not going up because of anything that any president at least usa president has done.

if hillary had gotten her health care program going then it would have sky rocketed.

i have decided i will not call this person a clown anymore it is an insult to clowns.

"That drives people to use their credit cards more."

I just said that! People buy things they can't afford.

I will try one more time to explain the economic reality we are faced with today. The past 7 Years have provided unprecedented economic opportunity for the haves in this country. We have followed a policy that enabled big companies to expand trade and operations that used low cost labor in other countries to feed their increased profits. That drove up the stock market which GWB pointed to as PROOF we had a good economic situation in America. The truth is since 90% of the securities traded on that increasing stock market are owned by the top 10%; the benefit to the other 90% of Americans was a marriage.

The middle income workers that did not loose their jobs received very small wage increases while essential elements such as Food, Clothing, health Care, Insurance Premiums and Energy costs outstripped their small wage increases. That forced these people to increase their personal debt or to secure home equity loans or refinance their homes that had been increasing in value in the face of speculation and a mortgage industry that designed mortgages that in the long run were beyond what many average people could pay. Many middle income people lsot their joibs to foireiogn compaction and took jobs that paid substantially less with more of the benefits costs to be paid by the worker. That caused mortgage defaults to increase and also forced people to use more credit card debt and seek mortgage refinancing. In the long run that made the economic situation of millions of American workers that were forced to take jobs that paid less a major problem and is a prime cause of the current Mortgage problem.

The low income workers had almost NO wage growth and they too were faces d with increased Food, Clothing and energy costs. Their situation during the past 7 years is even more of a problem then for the middle income workers. All this has put pressure on spending and the increases in spending were being financed with ever increasing personal debt and the money from refinancing real Estaste.

Now many people find themselves unable to pay the debt and are running out of credit card funding. Mortgage defaults are up 100 % and the largest Mortgage Company that holds 20% of ALL home Mortgages is in real financial trouble. Many smaller companies have already failed. That has that has precipitated a 10% drop in the stock market in less then a month and the Fed is scrambling to forestall what could trigger a full blown recession.

For the first time the wealthy are experiencing the impact since it is their holdings that have dropped 10% in the past month. When the Middle and low income workers can no longer spend, the profits that are the source of the wealth for the Bushies dries up. When you see Wal-Mart unable to keep their sales even with just inflation, you can see the real depth of the problem. The irony is that if we see major moorage company failures the people that Bush has enabled to amass huge wealth will most likely be the people that buy the holdings of the bankrupt Mortgage companies for pennies on the dollar and ultimately made huge profits from the misery of Millions of average people that can not afford their mortgage payments. For anyone that uses the excuse that this is Chicken Little, Look at the WORLD markets. Look at the Federal Reserve scrambling. It is REAL and it is MAJOR. This is taking place at a time when we as a nation are operating every year with a $400 Billion Dollar annual deficit and %9 Trillion in Debt overall. At a time when we are facing the added cost of protecting our country. Financing the Iraq War. Facing the impending problems of how to pay Social Security and Medicare. This is NOTHGING? In a PIGS EYE. We have FAILURE in the economic policies of Bush and the GOP controlled Congress.

We have a perfect example on here as to why personal debt is at an all time high. A blogger and his wife purchased a motorcycle with a $400/month payment, and a brand spanking new mobile home, all while they were fresh out of college, with no job stability whatsoever. Their case is extremely common. If people can get it financed, they will.

Look at the "Rent to Own" places that are absolutely prospering. They sell items at 3 to 5 times retail, when payments are stretched out over time, and these are not modest purchases, either. I DO know people on welfare who have big screen televisions. A lot of them, in fact. Meanwhile, we're working and our only TV is a 13". And my computer is a cannibalized assemblage of parts. And we drive an 8 year old vehicle.

But let's blame Bush for people's stupidity, shall we? If the president's to blame, then the president's the solution, and we can have a complete nanny state, where the government makes every decision for you!

I'm sorry, Col, but empirical evidence does not support this. Without even having a college degree, the only time my career has ever suffered a downturn was when it was through conscious choice.

You have enough education to realize there are different schools of economic thought, I'm sure. There are also different ways of spinning numbers.

While Bush has been no friend to the lower and middle classes (on that much we can agree), I believe it is irresponsible to blame the failure of these classes on Bush. As the adage goes "act your wage!" When Americans spend more than they earn, economic disaster is inevitable.

Take groceries, for instance. For years, we have bought generic basically everything. This is why we can feed our family on about $300 a month. Because we basically spend about HALF what people who buy name brands and do not shop sales spend. Would I rather have the higher quality foods? Certainly. But not if it means living beyond our means.

“I'm sorry, Col, but empirical evidence does not support this. Without even having a college degree, the only time my career has ever suffered a downturn was when it was through conscious choice.”

YOU are incorrect. There has been erosion after tax and inflation for most of the middle and all of the low income workers. The new jobs that were created are on the average paying 30% less then the jobs that were lost and the new jobs have less benefits especially health and retirement. The growth in personal debt and the mortgage defaults also support this situation. The shift in wealth to the upper income has also been confirmed.

I am not saying everyone has experienced a downturn. You were lucky. However that is not the case for the majority of the bottom 2/3 of the middle income workers and almost ALL of the low income workers.

Reply By: Jythier Posted: Friday, August 17, 2007
Just remember the difference between microeconomists and macroeconomists:

Microeconomists are wrong about specific things, while macroeconomists are wrong about things in general.

What I have said about the Macroeconomics is correct. There are individual situations that do not conform to the overall results. However overall the economic group that has done well during the past 6 plus years are the wealthy. There is also a small slice of the top 1/3 of Middle income Americas that has experienced some limited benefit. However, the vast majority of the middle income Americans and all the low income Americans have not participated in the Bush/GOP economic boom! That fact is now showing up in the mortgage failures, the record high personal debt and the downturn in spending even at low end retailers such as Wal-Mart! That is the reason the Stock Market has dropped which ironically now impacts the wealthy who own most of the securities traded on the Stock market! Thus the one sided economic policy Bush and the GOP in Congress have followed is NOW coming around to bite them in the A*s.

this hits everyone that sells a house. or stocks rich, poor, middle class.

so much for you only wanting to raise taxes on the rich.