what does any of this have to do with what i said

first i didnt accuse them of hating him, and honestly i dont hate him either. and again you completely missed my point. i clarified it for you before and it is there if you really want to know. no sense of repaeating it.

No, you did not.  Specifically you stated:

All of a sudden, Bush supporters woke up and discovered that he is an idiot who is leading the country down a disastrous path. And what woke them up? the Immigration Bill !!!!!

Just because many of us disagree with his immigration, does not mean we "woke up" and see he was an idiot all along, since we have supported his policies (not all, but most) in the past. 

What you did say:

done that for a loong time already. i never support anyone blindly and regardless of the consequences of his/her policies. I voted for clinton twice but opposed him on many issues.

 

the problem i have with the people who are up in arms against him because of this Bill is the fact that this is the least of his foolish policies. i listed few of the major disasters that he started, can you tell me how can anyone support that? but you guys did.

Which may indicate you think that clinton was an idiot after you found a policy you did not agree with, yet you have not stated you have found him to be an idiot.  So the question remains unanswered.  Are we to all of a sudden agree with you on everything Bush because we do not agree with him on immigration?  ANd if so (which again is implied by you but never stated), do you find Clinton an idiot since you found a policy you do not agree with?  Or are you just telling us we should do as you say, not as you do?

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. Nice to see that all I have to do is make a mistake and I'm automatically dumb-witted.

just a joke Charles, i just felt it was funny you thought i was a She. and i think it is understandable mistake. sorry if you got upset. i meant it in a good way.

besides there are already 2 to 15 laws on the books that aren't being enforced do you really think one more law will change things

you are right. and all laws must be enforced, the problem is current laws have no way of getting needed labor in the country in a simple easy way. and if this bill needs revisions then lets do it not just oppose the whole idea and get hung on the Amnesty slogan. just keep in mind that business needs labor not necessarily immigrants and current laws dont make it easy to get just workers.

Comon Doc. you missing the point again. it is not that they disagreed with him, it is the way they did and at the same time they didnt even lift a finger about his other earlier more disasterous mistakes even though many of them didnt agree with him on those issues . but they kept silent, because he is the president ... some actually said that. I wonder if that is because he is a Republican or would they also do that with a Democrat ...

You must not have read much then in the past 6 years.  For indeed we did decry the policies we did not like (NCLB, Drug Prescriptions, etc.).  However, as I have stated, other than the most shallow of people, supporters did not decide that all he did was stupid because of the policiy(ies) we did not agree with.  Nor do we now think that all his policies were or are bad.

Here we have a man that basically agreed with conservatives (for sake of argument) about 50% of the time, and went his own way the other 50% of the time.  In 2000, when he said (during campaigning) he was going to push through NCLB and Drugs, we may have agreed with him 60-70% of the time, but the agreement with the opposition was even less (I agreed with SS, Taxes, abortion, what he said on Spending, etc.).  In politics you do not get a man that you that goes along with you 100% of the time, unless you are a man of convictions and running yourself.

Now you are telling us because, for a change, the conservative base is very energized and ready to fight him, that we should call him an idiot and decry all his previous policies.  Something you have yet to tell us you did with Clinton.

Bush supporters did  not wake up.  For the most part, we have been awake and paying attention.  Some are calling him an idiot, and some are not (I am not).  Nor am I going to even though I am going to fight this bill with every shout at my reps I can.  And I will not say that his SS plan (still un acted upon by democrats who "say" there is no problem like the French did in May of 1940), his tax cut, his war on terror, or his other initiatives that I agree with but have been bottled up by congress are idiotic or stupid.  I will, and have said that his Education plan (I spent 12 years in Education at the state and local level - so I have a great deal of background on that subject), his Sr. drug plan, and the immigration plan is stupid and idiotic.  However the first 2 were done 6 years ago. So while you were jumping up and down and telling the world how much you hate him, we were trying to get those bills killed, but you did not hear us for your own noise level.

When you rank Clinton as the worst president of the 20th century, I will then agree that we should now be waking up and saying that Bush is stupid and an idiot.  Until then, do not tell me to do what you do not do.

This is clearly a quote coming from somone who has very little knowledge about the challenges of 'legally immigrating' through the current process.

It isn't an issue of 'if i don't get it, they don't get it either.' It is a matter of: Hey I'm obeying the laws here and this jerk who cares less about the US laws and sovereignty gets to cut in line (else they would be in line too doing it the legal way)????

Me? Upset? Nah, it takes a lot to get me mad. Don't worry.

Great, that is my kind of thinking. Thanks.

we were trying to get those bills killed, but you did not hear us for your own noise level.

Not the majority of conservatives Doc. I know some did just what you said and i admired them for that. The fact is that the majority let him take a long unopposed ride over many crucial decisions. i did not expect that from them. but i honestly dont hate him. may be it is hard for you to believe that but i really think he was put in a position over his head. and the people who put him there should have checked him earlier. That is in short all of my point.

This is clearly a quote coming from somone who has very little knowledge about the challenges of 'legally immigrating' through the current process.

I agree and I can only imagine the frustration and the efforts/expenses involved. That is why i said these workers should get work permits not immigration visas. If they want that they should apply and stand in line like everyone else not jump ahead of the people who applied years ago and still waiting. This should be fixed.

TA please tell me how you differentiate work permits and immigration visas?

A big difference my friend. Work permits are just that. The gov issues them with a limited-time visa to work at a specific job and location. when they lose that job or the time expires they leave unless they can get the employer to endorse them and give them another job. I really dont know the other details of it but it is not a permanent residence Visa. I believe it is like visas given to other nationals when they come here on assignments. it is much easier to get if you have a job sponsor. and it has nothing to do about citizenship or permanenet residence. and people from other parts of the world get that all the time with no objection.

Immigration Visa is a permit to stay in the country as a permanent resident with no guarantee of a job or a need for a sponsor. You are treated almost like a citizen. that is why it takes long time and more expensive. employers do most of the work for work-permits and they need that not immigrants.

that is what the opposition of this Bill should be saying not just use amnesty as a slogan to obstruct solution to this problem. Just opposing it without offering reasonable fixes is just OBSTRUCTION not governing.

First of all there are sufficient laws on the books. They need to be enforced. George H. Bush didnt enforce the borders, Clinton didn't enforce the borders, and GWB hasn't enforced the borders. I will OBSTRUCT any bill of this type because we ALREADY HAVE the laws we need to enforce our borders and to deal with this. Ike and Reagan dealt with these issues while in office. The 1986 Amnesty bill did horrors. Yes the system is broke but throwing it away because it is broke is NOT the answer and allowing 12million + illegals to safely reside in our borders is insane!

REAL PROBLEM SOLVING CHANGES:
Enforce the borders like never before.
Repeal the regulations against Immigration so that they can effectively do their duty.
Take a multi-staged approach to deporting them but first ENFORCE the BORDERS.
Fingerprint the illegal deportees. Two strikes you're out!
Enforce the border.